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more flaws with the rating
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Lexicon



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: more flaws with the rating Reply with quote

FiveStars wrote:
Thank you Aaron. BTW, my ranking is not yet corrected.

Your rating in Tanbo is also flawed!

Tanbo 0/4/1 (10.00%)

1st) there are no draws in Tanbo!
2nd) 1 out of 5 makes 20%!


Actually, stay calm, the Tanbo calculation is correct. The 1 Draw occurred because the game was abandoned by all players. Draws count as half a win and half a loss, so it's like he won half of one of his 5 games, which is 10%. Don't get so worked up in the future, please.
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jeep



Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played in tournaments for many years as well (Go, Magic, Chess, etc) and counting a draw as half a win is common. They sometimes count as 1/3 of a win, too. Draws indeed aren't counted AS a win... they are counted as half a win when rating. It's half way between a win and a loss.

As to playing Go tournaments, that doesn't give you experience in deal with draws, does it? Komi includes a half point increment, except in New Zealand, so there is no such thing as a draw. But it is very common in games where true draws can occur. Do you play someplace else with an even number Komi?

I think what Lexicon is referring to is your use of the exclamation point. It makes it seem like you are anxious/worried/upset.

-JEEP
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MarkSteere
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Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: more flaws with the rating Reply with quote

FiveStars wrote:
. . . there are no draws in Tanbo!


A draw can occur in any game, including finite conclusive games such as Tanbo. That "abandonment" example was kind of an aberration. In a more likely scenario, one player would feel disadvantaged and offer a draw. The other player, also feeling disadvantaged, would accept. Aaron doesn't allow for draws in the finite conclusive games here and I'm glad of that. Let the players fight it out and see who wins.

The only other example I can think of for a draw in a finite conclusive game is a termination of the game beyond the players' control, such as the board being accidentally knocked over. Whether this really qualifies as a "draw" is a matter of semantics. Bottom line, the game is terminated and neither player won.

I think of Go as an essentially infinite game. I'm well aware of the existence of Ko, triple Ko, and even more advanced, exceedingly complicated Ko rule sets. To me such rule sets are an abomination. There are two phrases in every Go enthusiast's vocabulary: "Beyond the scope of this discussion," and "Usually not a problem." Yuck. I understand the Ko rules are not even effective in every case. The only certain method of preventing endless cycles in Go is with the rule to never repeat a position - totally impractical without a computer.

I also think of the x.5 Komi rules as an inelegant kludge. I hate draws, especially the endless cycle variety. Even more distasteful are the kludgy rule sets designed to preclude draws.

But I still like Go in spite of all that. I won't actually play because I'm totally incapable of winning - against anybody. But it's a good game to be aware of. Not that the equipment should matter in an abstract game, but I admire the equipment of Go. It has a natural beauty and a functional beauty. With the big block boards, if you trip over it, it won't likely budge. If the board does move, the shape of the pieces will cause them to wobble, absorbing the energy of the shock. Clever technology for a thousands of years old game.
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MarkSteere
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Mark's comments Reply with quote

FiveStars wrote:

I doubt that you understand the word "semantics" . . .


If I may quote from dictionary.com:

[semantics] 3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

Note the example provided about not arguing - exactly what I didn't want to do.

Ralf, I've been speaking English for about 46 years now and I'm not the tiniest bit confused. But if I ever need help with my semantics I will run to you.

Stop sniping at me. In another post you say Aaron has already given all of us so much joy and love thru his amazing SDG project. And yet here your are attempting to turn Aaron's forum into a bickerfest. I agree with Laurie. You need to lend some attention to the notion of gratitude.

The point I was trying to make was that two players can agree on a draw at any time, for any reason, and in any type of game, including finite conclusive games such as Tanbo. I'll take your disregard for the relevant portion of my argument as an acknowledgement.
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MarkSteere
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralf, I have no interest in perpetuating this flame war with you. And I especially have no interest in dredging up past battles. Believe it or not, this was a relatively peaceful forum before you arrived.

Everyone was and many still are willing to accept you as an equal. The problem is the megalomania. The pseudo intellectualism. The reinventing of the axioms of game theory. The presuming to correct the diction of native English speakers. The endless citings of your expert qualifications. Enough already.

Sometimes it's beneficial to consider the endgame in advance. Where is all this headed? Sometime in the future you will throw a massive, world class temper tantrum, do everything in your power to damage, disrupt, and otherwise sabotage SDG, possibly launch a ridiculous legal action against Aaron for not controlling his group, not expelling the troublemakers, and allowing people to insult you, which action will accomplish nothing more than to ring up legal expenses on both sides. And in the end of course you'll demand that your game be removed from SDG.

Why not just cut to the chase and save everybody the agony? If you're not happy here, you have the option to take your game and go.
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MarkSteere
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralf, I could easily post links to your admitted sabotage of the Yahoo stacking-games group when you resigned as moderator, as well as the angry responses to your sabotage from the group's owner and its members. This would fully demonstrate the type of infantile temper tantrum which has come to characterize your behavior. But I think you've made that point already, once again.

Don't you think it's time we bury the hatchet? We are both visible characters in this small world of abstract games, and we are damaging ourselves as much as each other with this ridiculousness. While entertaining for some, and annoying for others, it's unquestionably unfair to Aaron who has already clearly indicated his disdain for feuding in his forum, and rightfully so.
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spielstein
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was stupid enough to read this thread.

Now, Ralf, as I find you quoting me I have to make things clear:

1. I was offended by Mark.
2. I made a statement.
3. I consider this as done.

Please, Ralf, do not use me attacking other people.

Now, on to the games ...

Dieter
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MarkSteere
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Kopfschütteln... das ist wirklich schwach... Reply with quote

FiveStars wrote:
If you don't want yourself to be quoted, simply delete your post at stacking games. You know quite well that [blah blah blah blah blah]


Aaron, there's only one way to put a stop to this rampage. He won't be satisfied until he accosts every member of SDG. This is already a complete disaster. For the sake of the community as a whole . . .
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